Whitney (01:09)

Ken, it is so great to see you again.

Ken (01:11)

Whitney, it’s great to be back.

Whitney (01:14)

Thank you. Yeah, you are the very first person to appear on both Meet the Peer and Recovery Conversations. Yeah. And I can’t believe I hadn’t thought about getting you on here to talk about your business before. And I’m excited. So if you don’t mind, for those who haven’t heard your other episode, can you do a brief introduction of who you are?

Ken (01:31)

Woohoo!

Okay, sure. Yeah, my name is Ken Dunn. Some people call me Catbird. I am a person in recovery. I am also the founder and chief joy facilitator of Expedition Recovery. I’m an experiential recovery coach. I’m also a group facilitator and I’m a human being. I think that’s sort of the nutshell of who I am and what I do.

Whitney (02:05)

Yeah, that’s great. And so you said you’re an experiential recovery coach. What does that mean?

Ken (02:10)

Right. So what I mean by that is I like to take individuals who are people in recovery or wanting some distance from substance or processes. And we go outside most of the time. Sometimes we do things inside, but most of the time we go outside and we enjoy nature. We engage in some activity that is really interesting to the individual. It may be an experience that they’ve already had. Like maybe they like to go for walks or they like to go rock climbing or something like that. And it can be anything really. It’s whatever they like, whatever they already know or are interested in trying. And we go do that thing. And in that container, then we do like recovery coaching. We try to understand what their goals are, what their values are, and try to make sure that their goals and their values are aligned with one another and that their actions actually take them to the place that they want to go. So it’s experiential because we’re doing this thing in this container of some activity. And I really like to, whenever possible, actually incorporate some aspects of the activity and relate it back to recovery because a lot of things relate back to recovery or they relate back to regular life. And so we look at the activity and try to find places where we can actually learn from it. One of the things that’s really interesting is that we learn so much more quickly when we’re in play than we do when we’re in like a clinical setting. You know, there’s some statistics. I don’t want to give you the statistics because I will just be making them up, right? But there are these statistics about how many times faster we learn things when we learn them in play. You know, it’s like four times faster when we learn them in play than when we learn them from just rote memorization, you know, if we’re reading or watching something, but when we’re actually in play and we’re and we’re learning from that play experience, we learn the things with many fewer iterations of learning it than if we’re learning it by memory. And so, you know, if we can go and engage in an activity and we can see some aspect of that activity that relates back to regular life and then we reflect on that, it’s like, it just sticks, you know? A lot of that goes along with the idea of story. You know, humans are…

Whitney (04:28)

Yeah.

Ken (04:33)

Our story machines, we learn so much of what we learn from story. You know, all of these stories that you probably learned as a child that like you never forget because they’re stories and we just relate to stories. We learn key aspects of story and they stick with us forever. And so in that way we can use activity. The story is created from the activity and the memory sticks with us.

Whitney (05:02)

There’s so many things there that I want to dive into. The idea of play and how that impacts our learning, I can’t help but think about children and how children process through play. They’ll mimic things they see with their dolls or their toys, and it helps them make sense of the world. And so how interesting that even at the adult level, maybe it’s not playing withtoys where we’re reenacting a scene between people, but we’re engaging in that probably similar area of our brain and also our hearts and souls to connect things. And then the story aspect and bringing that together with play and an activity. I imagine part of it is you’re hitting so many different senses.

Ken (05:44)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Whitney (05:56)

And ways that the information is coming in and being tied together, which probably, and this is testing my recollection of graduate school, but probably enhances the likelihood of remembering and being able to recall the experience.

Ken (06:12)

Yeah, you touched on a couple of things there. The two things that I’m taking from what you just said is one, the experiential nature and the trial and error nature of doing these things. And that’s a really important aspect of the way that I coach. And then the other part is the different types of teaching skills or teaching tools that are really successful teachers use a lot of different elements. They’ll use spoken word, they’ll use visual cues, they’ll use audio cues, they’ll use direct immersion. And so it’s like, it’s shown that the more ways that a person gets to experience a learning, a learning words, like teaching a topic, the more ways they get to an experience a topic. The more likely they are going to remember that topic because they’ve learned it with multiple senses and multiple avenues. The other thing, the first thing there that you mentioned about the experiential nature of it, one of the things that I really like to help participants understand is that it is trial and error and there’s going to be error. And if we look at it from that perspective that like, we can just be curious about this. Like, yeah, you’re gonna try a thing. And you might fail at the thing the first time, but that’s data, right? You go, okay, I did the thing and this is the way that I did it and now it didn’t work out. And so what could I do differently this time that might be successful? And I think when we come at it from that play to begin with, right? It’s like, we’re starting with this idea of there might be some failure and that’s okay. You know, we’ll try and try again. And…and I think when we approach it from that perspective, the stakes come down a lot, right? Like it doesn’t have to be once you’re done. It doesn’t have to be, you don’t have to be successful on the first try. You know, there’s an old saying and I don’t know the exact saying, but you know, you learn more from your failures than you do from your successes. You know, you can be successful and it can just be crap luck. You know, the stars aligned, you got it right, but you don’t even know how you did it really. It just worked, right? But when you fail,

Whitney (08:16)

Mm -hmm.

Ken (08:28)

And you step back and you say, okay, what went wrong with that? Okay, I’m not gonna try that again, right? It’s like, that didn’t work and I know what about it didn’t work, so let’s try something different this time. And so that’s the approach that I take with the people that I work with, the peers that I work with. It’s like, let’s just experiment with this. It doesn’t have to be such a high stakes kind of thing.

Whitney (08:41)

Yeah and what freedom as anyone struggles with failure. And then you take individuals, particularly those in early recovery who feel like they or have been told that they’re a failure. So to be able to say, it’s okay if you don’t get this right on the first time. It kind of builds up that tolerance and resilience to be able to say, okay, I didn’t get it that time, I’m gonna try again. So it. It’s really what an amazing opportunity to practice the emotional experience of not doing well at something the very first time and having to work at it and having to practice and try again and try a new way. And so, you know, and fun, we all need more fun. So then let’s go into expedition recovery. Tell us like what what is that?

Ken (09:43)

Okay, yeah, awesome. Well, Expedition Recovery is actually three models. It’s a peer coaching, like recovery coaching model, and it’s experiential, as I had already mentioned, and that has two different components. There’s an individual coaching component and also a group coaching component, and both are experiential in nature. You know, ideally, we go outside and we go do outdoor activities and play in those ways and get to know each other and, like I said, work through goals, values and action. And then the second model is group facilitation. And I facilitate groups at community organizations, treatment centers, partial hospitalization organizations, prevention organizations, drug court, you name it. And basically take small groups out and we do some activity outside. And so that oftentimes looks like series of activities a lot of times it will be like at the beginning some rapport building activities and other activities that help individuals to get to know one another help individuals become part of a group which is I think a very important aspect of Finding our way in recovery is finding a group of people And then we do the you know what might might call the like main activity whether it’s go for a hike or play disc golf or meditation in the woods sitting quietly and then we do some reflection, you know, and there might be a series of these activities, you know, I’m kind of spelling it out as if it’s like three activities, but it might be a lot more than that, you know. But we go out, we spend time together and enjoy time outdoors and learn new skills and do some reflection. And that is very powerful group settings where people get to know one another, they get to know themselves. They get to build some connection with nature. They get to find new activities that they didn’t know they enjoy or rediscover old activities that maybe they thought were no longer accessible to them or what have you. And it’s really, it’s very rewarding work. I love doing that work. And then the last model that I operate under is backpacking trips. And so individuals can sign up for a backpacking trip. And they’re anywhere from like two and a half days up to like 14 day backpacking trips. And they’re all recovery based. So everybody who is there is someone who is trying to figure out their way in recovery. And again, these trips are kind of organized in a fashion to help to build group rapport, help people learn to find their place in a group, build connection, build community, unplug and refresh in nature, reinvigorate themselves. So they normally start with some activities like group drumming or some other kind of group experience like that. We do a lot of fire ceremony. The backpacking trip is generally organized in a way that individuals will learn some outdoor skills so that when they are finished, they feel like maybe they could do this on their own. They can kind of fly and be free and go take themselves on a backpacking trip.

Whitney (13:02)

Yeah.

Ken (13:06)

Or maybe even they’re close, you know, maybe they won’t feel comfortable going to do that on their own, but they’ve gained some skills so that they can start to feel more comfortable doing those kinds of things. So it’s a really great opportunity to get outside, immerse in nature, unplug, connect with yourself, connect with nature, connect with another group of people, and yet challenge yourself. You know, there’s so many opportunities in that setting to get so much out of it.

Whitney (13:35)

And one thing I hear a lot from people who are early in recovery is the challenge of finding things to do with their time and how to have fun. And what I’m hearing is that, especially when you’re in these community organizations, you are giving that solution in a way and showing the joy that can be experience in recovery and opening these new pathways for adventure even.

Ken (14:08)

Yeah, I mean, one of the phrases that I use a lot and one of the concepts that I teach to the individuals who come to groups is challenge by choice, right? So you mentioned challenge. You get to decide how much you want to involve yourself in any activity and how little you want to involve, whether you want to be completely immersed or just partially today. But each individual gets to decide for themselves how much they want to be involved in the activity. And it is…almost always a challenge. You know, when many of us who are in recovery have this experience of not knowing how we’re gonna have fun again, you know, and that was an experience for myself early in recovery. It’s a big part of why I decided to start this business because at one point in time I was like, yeah, my life is over. Life is never going to be fun again. And I was sure of that. And I had to challenge my own belief of that. Like, is this really true? Am I never gonna have fun again? And so I started getting myself back into some of the activities that I had done before and learned, yeah, it’s possible. Now some of the things were hard, right? I’m a big dancer, I love to dance. And when I was still in my active addiction, it was a lot easier to dance than it was when I was newly sober. And I had to have a serious conversation with myself. Like, do I want this to be the end of that? Or can I…

Whitney (15:33)

Mm -hmm.

Ken (15:35)

Can I live a life where I get to dance and move my body and it’s still be a joyous thing. And I’m not gonna lie, it took me a few chances, like a few attempts to get to the place where I could go back out and dance and have fun. And now it’s a part of my normal life. I dance all the time. I can’t imagine my life without dance. But there are lots of challenges. And that’s not, so it’s not to say that like all of this stuff is easy, but there are lots of challenges. And those challenges, can be the place where we learn the most, right? Where we learn about ourselves, learn what it is that scares me about this thing? And am I able to overcome it? And that’s where we have growth. I think the thing that’s coming to mind right now is like limiting beliefs. And for a lot of us, where we have the thoughts in our mind that keep coming up that I can’t do this or that…it’s never gonna be fun again. If we can step back and say, is that really true? And then challenge ourselves to like actually go out and try the thing and see if it’s true or not. There’s a lot to be gained from that, a lot to learn about ourselves. And the reality of it is for a lot of us that when we’re in recovery, the thing that we’re learning the most is who am I? What am I about?

Whitney (16:49)

Yeah.

Ken (17:03)

For many of us, we have pushed ourselves aside, pushed our inner selves to the side and done the things that we thought we were supposed to do for other people, the things that we were told we were supposed to do and never really looked at what’s actually in here. What do I really believe when I get rid of all that conditioning?

Whitney (17:24)

Yeah, which I imagine the aspect of play helps with. You already mentioned it, like it brings us on some barriers. When we’re in play, we’re less or in the state of play in a state of joy, we’re less in our head with the critiquing and doubt and just, you know, probably experiencing a different emotion than we’re used to and a different feeling overall.

Ken (17:51)

Yeah, yeah, you know, in the group setting, it becomes really obvious in the group setting when I’m doing like group facilitation and I’m offering an activity that maybe is designed just to be fun, right? And we, you know, it starts out a lot of times there’s a little bit of apprehension about doing the thing. And before long, you know, a couple people are like, they’re in it, they’re like, they’re charged and it becomes infectious, right? So now everybody’s like in it. And you kind of lose sight of the fact that maybe I look silly right now. You know what I mean? Because you’re just in it and it’s fun. And you know, before long you have like 10 people running around in the woods, just having a good time playing some silly game, you know? And most of the time when people get done, we’ll do a reflection and I’ll be like, what was that like? And a lot of times people will say, well, I wasn’t paying attention to my thoughts, you know? I was just doing the thing and it was fun and I was feeling joy, you know? And I was present right here right now, you know?

Whitney (18:23)

You’re right. Yeah.

Ken (18:48)

And that’s beautiful, you know, like especially most of the time, or I shouldn’t say most of the time, frequently the people that I’m working with are in early recovery. You know, they might be in treatment right now. And there’s a lot of stuff coming up for them, a lot of challenges. And so to be able to be in that place where they’ve let go of all those thoughts, you know, and worry and everything else, and they’re just in the moment and just having fun, you know, is sometimes the highlight of their week, you know, to…

Whitney (19:16)

Yeah.

Ken (19:17)

Just play and have fun and be in their bodies.

Whitney (19:20)

Absolutely, and to know that it can’t, like you can experience that. You can have joy, you can be happy. What a source of inspiration that, okay, I can do this. Like, it’s all right, I can do this. Your programs are, at least my understanding is mostly, if not all, outdoors. What role does being outside, if any, play in the experience?

Ken (19:25)

Yeah. Well, you know, there’s a lot of research that demonstrates how being outside has a really positive effect on the human physiology. You know, we are supposed to be in outdoor settings. And so it’s really interesting to see when you get people outside that, you know, they might be, we might meet in an indoor setting or we might meet like just at the vehicles, right? We all get out of the car and we meet up and there can be a lot of like tightness and apprehension. And then once we start to walk and get into nature, people like their defenses drop almost immediately. You know, it’s five minutes down the trail and people are like starting to relax and feel more comfortable. And that’s in part, you know, that experience of being in nature, of seeing the living world around us, being part of something bigger. And it’s in part the idea that we’re walking together, that we’re looking at the world together rather than being like, squared off, you know, we’ve kind of got this right now as we’re talking to one another, we’re facing one another, you know, but as soon as we start turning and we start walking side by side, it’s like we’re in this together. And that perspective change is much different, you know, I’m not being stared at right now, you know, like when we’re walking side by side, we’re looking at the world together as almost as if through the same eyes.

Whitney (20:50)

Yes. Yes. Right. I love that. And just like even, you know, the symbolism of it. You know, we talk about walking side by side with someone, but physically you’re walking side by side. You’re not putting anyone in a state of, you know, like, you know, head on. I hadn’t thought of that. And that’s a really interesting thing. It reminds me of a teacher at my high school. He taught a philosophy course and he was known for going on walks around the school with his students. The final was three, it would be like three hour walks and the students would just talk and then he would talk and they’d ask questions. And I imagined it was a similar experience of we’re just meeting each other and opening up in a different way.

Ken (21:57)

Yeah, yeah, you know, something that you said there just triggered a thought in my mind, which is that I tried to organize all my groups so that we’re in a circle, you know, and I don’t know if you’ve ever had that experience like in camp or something like that. They call it circling up, right? We’re all in a circle and in a circle, everybody is at the same level. We’re all peers, right? Versus someone sitting behind a desk and another person sitting in a chair on the other side of the desk. You know, there’s a, there’s a power differential there and I talk about this actually fairly frequently in my groups that we’re in a circle because we’re all at the same level. We’re all peers. And I might be responsible for leading the group, but I’m a person in recovery and I’m here to meet them right where they’re at. So it’s definitely a peer relationship. And I think that makes a difference when individuals know that they’re talking to somebody who’s got a lived experience. And that I’m putting myself, I’m making sure to be consciously putting myself on the same level at all times.

Whitney (22:40)

Yeah.mYeah.

Ken (22:57)

The other thing that I thought of or that comes about when talking about this, like you had asked about, how is it different going out in nature or how does that affect the group? There are chemicals that the trees put off. There is an old practice, a Japanese practice called forest bathing. And this was known to be beneficial to humans for a long time. That’s why the Japanese have done it for a very long time. But recently it’s been discovered that the trees emit chemicals and those chemicals help to calm our bodies, to help us feel more relaxed just in our surroundings. And once people relax, they naturally become more open, you know, and they naturally feel more safe. And when they feel more safe, they’re more willing to share what’s going on in their life and be more vulnerable and authentic. And so I feel really lucky actually, I get to see people in their true nature, right? They’ll say things to me that they might not say to other people because I get to experience them out there in the world, you know, and it’s a really wonderful thing. Yeah.

Whitney (24:01)

It sounds like it. I want to go on one of your hikes. And just the, you know, of course you have your programs and we’re going to talk about how people can connect with you if they’re interested. This is something though that no matter where you are, no matter what your resources are, being outside is something feasible. Going for a walk. There’s a little bit more to it than just stepping outside or going for a walk. Can you give some

Ken (24:05)

Hahaha.

Whitney (24:31)

Kind of starter tips for someone who maybe all they have in their resource pocket right now is the ability to go for a walk. What would be some tips for them to really get the most out of it?

Ken (24:43)

Sure, that’s a really good question. No one has ever asked me that question before. I’m really glad you asked it. So, you know, the thing that I would say to people is to slow down. Like, we don’t have to walk fast. Here’s something I’ll say about walking. There’s an ancient practice called walking meditation, and walking meditation is generally done fairly slowly, slower than most people would normally walk if they were just taking a casual walk or if they were going some, you know, if they were using their feet as transportation, right? You slow down and…traditional wisdom is the slower you go, the more you notice. I believe that to be true. And there are other people who walk a little faster when they do walking meditation. So I would say if you’re going to go to walk as a way to get outside and to start to feel the benefits of being outside, I would say slow down a little bit. The other thing I would say is notice what’s happening in your body. Like feel the felt senses. Notice the felt senses in your feet, feeling your feet, the pressure on your feet, on the earth, feeling when you lift a foot how that changes the pressure in your feet, and noticing further up your body in your legs and in your lower back, and just noticing all the felt sensations in your body. And that sounds kind of silly, like, why would I pay attention to my body in that way? But what happens is when you’re doing that, you can only be right here, right? Your mind can’t be somewhere else when what you’re doing is paying attention to what’s going on in your body. So…That would be where I would start. The other thing I would say is look around and see what’s around you. What we can often do, and I say this for myself, that I oftentimes, if I go for a walk and I’ve got something heavy on my mind or on my heart, I will chew on that thing in my walk. And I just spend my time walking, thinking about that thing and ruminating about that thing. And when that’s what I’m doing, I’m stuck in my head and everything that’s in my head has been there, right? It’s nothing, there’s nothing new there.

Whitney (26:40)

Yeah.

Ken (26:42)

I’m not getting new information. It’s like, I’m retreading the same concepts and thoughts again and again and again. So be in your body, feel what’s happening in your body. Notice the things that you see around you. Notice the sounds that you hear. Be really present. And it’s amazing how the things that are in your mind will pass, but intuitions will come up. You know, like the things that are in your heart will rise to the surface and you might go, where the hell did that come from?

Whitney (27:11)

Yes.

Ken (27:13)

Literally, like, where did that come from? But that’s where, those are the things that are to be trusted, right? That’s like that inner wisdom that comes from deep down inside. And you have to let go of all the conditioning to get there.

Whitney (27:27)

Absolutely, you can’t force yourself to pull up that intuition, but we get stuck in our minds in thinking about things and what if, and I wish, and if I only could have, and not tapping into that internal source of wisdom that we all have that we overlook and whether, like conditioning does play a big part. We’re not often told to go with our gut. We’re often told to say, what does the data say? What does research say? What’s best practices? And we need to all kind of tap into ourselves more. And I like the idea of just slowing down. I am a fast walker and I definitely get stuck in my head. So I’m gonna practice that myself.

Ken (28:14)

There’s benefits both ways. I mean, there can definitely be some benefit if you can stay out of your head a little bit to move fast. You know, walking can like let some of that energy move through you, especially if like you’ve got a lot of anxiety or you’re having hard feelings or whatever, you know, some difficult experience came up. Walking fast can help you shed some of that energy. It’s really important that we do that sometimes. You know, it’s like the, we’ve heard about the dog shaking, right? Like that’s the dogs don’t. Dogs don’t have like stuck energy inside them because when something difficult happens, they shake it off literally. So we can do that by walking as well. But if we keep chewing on the thing while we’re doing that, it’s still gonna be with us. So, you know, if we can get a good walk in, you know, get out there and release some energy, great, but don’t chew on life.

Whitney (29:01)

Yeah, yeah. And I have to ask, I’m curious, you said that the activities you do can sometimes be things that people have done before. What is an activity that someone brought to you and wanted to do that maybe you hadn’t done before and then you really enjoyed?

Ken (29:20)

And that’s a good question. And, well, you know, I’ll tell you, it’s not an activity I haven’t done before, but it’s an activity that I haven’t done in this setting, which was just to go to the park and sit on the park bench and have a conversation. So, you know, most of the things that I’ve done have been a little bit more mobile than that. You know, so like to go just sit on the park bench, which was actually really lovely, you know, just relaxing, sitting on the park bench, having a leisurely conversation, you know, was really nice.

Whitney (29:36)

Mm -hmm, that’s great. And so those who want to get in touch with you are interested in maybe going on a hike. How do they get in touch with you?

Ken (29:58)

Well, one way they can get in touch with me is through straight up care. That’s one of the ways. And the other way is they can, you know, people can find a lot about my business, who I am through my Instagram site and also through my website. And I’m sure that you can leave the link for that in the notes. My website is, the name is silly. Not silly .com, but it’s a silly string of letters that I would have chosen differently had I thought of it.

Ken (30:28)

Yeah, so they can get a hold of me through email. They get a hold of me through a phone call or text messaging, through my website, through Straight Up Care, through Instagram. There’s any number of ways. If somebody looks up Expedition Recovery, they will find me and the many ways that they can get in touch with me. I would say, you know, though my coaching is experiential, I do online coaching, like I mentioned. So Straight Up Care, you know, someone who wants to connect

Whitney (30:44)

Yes.Good to know.

Ken (30:57)

Can connect with me through Stratacare and we can do a zoom or a phone call. Experientially is my preference but it’s not the only way that I coach folks. So I try to as much as possible be available to individuals in a way that’s going to be best for them because that’s really important. We need to meet people where they’re at. You know when folks need help they need us to meet them.

Whitney (31:22)

Yeah, thank you. And I just, I think it’s so fascinating and I love the message of joy and play that you always bring. As we wrap up, I’m going to ask my typical question. If people walk away and they can only take one thing, what would you like it to be?

Ken (31:43)

You know, I think I probably have a new answer to this question. You know, it would have to be somewhere between it’s possible to have fun in recovery. I mean, I think that’s a really important thing. And also, I think it’s really important for people to remember that asking for help is one of the ways that we solve a lot of our problems. You know, we don’t have to do this alone. You know, there are lots of people out there that are looking for help. They’re looking to help and it’s much easier when we do it together. So one of those two, not sure, pick one.

Whitney (32:21)

Yeah, that’s great. Thank you so much, Ken. Everyone check out Expedite Recovery and just go for that walk, whether it’s at that fast speed to get out the energy or you’re slowing down and really kind of getting in touch with your body again. Try it. Get outside. See what you think. Let us know what you think or let Ken know. I think we can all do a little bit more to take care of ourselves. We talk about that a lot so that everyone can go for a walk or a stroll. I don’t want to be dismissive of anyone who may be walking is hard. Maybe it’s you going for a little ride somewhere and have the windows down so that you can take in that fresh air. But get outside, try something new and definitely check out Expedition Recovery. Get in touch with Ken if you’re interested and thank you all for listening.