Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (00:00)
What comes to mind for you when you think about chronic pain? If you’re like me, you think about the physical pain that we experience. Well, in this conversation with Elizabeth Kipp, we all can learn a little bit more about the various ways pain can present and what chronic pain really means, as well as the power to heal that lives within each of us. Stay tuned to be inspired as we continue to reduce the stigma.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (01:36)
Hello and welcome to Recovery Conversations. Today’s conversation is with Elizabeth Kipp, a stress management and historical trauma specialist who uses trauma, trained and informed addiction recovery coaching, ancestral clearing, compassionate inquiry, and yoga to help people with their healing. Elizabeth healed from over 40 years of chronic pain, including anxiety, panic attacks, and addiction. Now in long -term recovery, she guides others to unleash their healing power and finding freedom from suffering as well as living a thriving life. The bestselling author of The Way Through Chronic Pain, Tools to Reclaim Your Healing Power. Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining me today.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (02:19)
Well, thanks so much, Whitney. It’s my pleasure to be a guest on your show.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (02:23)
I am just so reflective of how much painting was mentioned in your history in that little bit. And I want us to go there through the way of your work, because it seems like they’re interwoven. Can you tell us exactly what your work is and what led you to doing it?

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (02:45)
Well, my business is called Elizabeth Kipp Stress Management Limited or LLC. And all the other things in my bio that you mentioned are under that umbrella. It sounds like I do a lot of things. Those are the modalities that I use to handle that. Now,

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (03:03)
Okay.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (03:06)
I think we’re all go with this because we could go in a hundred different directions. I think we’re all go with this is this. The human body has this thing called a stress response. And it’s designed to go when we’re under threat, when we perceive a threat or we’re actually under threat, even perceived, it’s designed to go into the on position. And that creates a physiology, kind of biochemical stuff, mental stuff, puts us in a state where we are physiologically able to address the threat. Then we address the threat, it’s done, we’re safe again, and the stress response goes back into the off position. That’s a balanced stress response.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (03:47)
Mm -hmm.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (03:51)
In chronic pain, the stress response gets stuck in the on position. So that’s an example of chronic stress is an example of chronic pain. Chronic pain is any pain that’s felt 15 days out of 30 for three months or more. Any pain, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, financial, it doesn’t matter. All those things send the same signal to the brain. It hurts the brain can’t tell the difference between a broken bone and a broken heart. So grief is a chronic pain experience if it’s lasting more than, if it fits the definition that we just gave. A divorce is an example. The pain of a divorce is an example of that. Feeling separated from God can be devastating, can be a chronic pain experience.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (04:32)
Yeah.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (04:45)
And walking around with a broken bone that isn’t healing is another one. So those are all examples. And this is the stress response stuck in the on position. And how does that show up physiologically? Imagine you’re walking on eggshells your whole life. You’re in this, that your lifestyle is that. So you’re hypervigilant, always looking for, you know, when am I going to, when’s the next threat coming? Its a kind of thing that’s very corrosive to the body. We’re not made for that. The human machine is just not made for that. So we get chronic disease. It creates so much stress in the system that it creates dis -ease. Also in the chronic pain experience, we have brain fog, we can’t remember things, and we get a pronounced negative mind.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (05:15)
Right.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (05:43)
Every person that I’ve been in the rooms a little over 10 years now in the recovery rooms, every person I know that’s in recovery was a chronic pain, that was an addict, right? To whatever, was a chronic pain sufferer first. And prior to that, they had unresolved trauma in the system they were trying to like deal with one way or another. So that’s why I had the trauma training part in there.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (05:48)
Mm -hmm. Great. Great. yeah.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (06:11)
And that’s why I ended up going into historical trauma because that’s a piece of what we’re carrying, right? We are carrying information from other generations that’s unresolved. So we have unresolved trauma in this lifetime and we’ve got the stuff that we’re carrying from other lifetimes. So that’s kind of, I started in chronic pain. I worked my way back to trauma and then realized that,

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (06:20)
Absolutely.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (06:40)
Well, we’re not like Dr. Gabbo Romante says, don’t ask why the pain or why the addiction, ask why the pain, right? So we see all this addictive behavior, but addressing it at its level is not necessarily as effective as working at it at the root level.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (06:47)
pain, right? Absolutely. Thank you. I have never heard chronic pain described in that way and it really opened my awareness because I it makes such sense that you know pain we know pain can be mental, spiritual, emotional, all those other realms financial as you mentioned. So often though we get focus and only think of the pain, the physical pain.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (07:36)
Well, that’s our, but you know, I love that you said that, that you pointed to that because you’re sharing, you’re showing us and reminding us all where we tend to look. We tend to look at the physical when we, when we are kids, right? And we’re in the playground or whatever and so somebody, right. There’s a collision or somebody falls down or whatever, what happens? The adults rush to the area and they try and make that pain go away as fast as possible. It’s usually physical. I say, what’s the message there? The message is, pain is bad. We’re at war with pain. And usually it’s that physical thing. If there’s emotional pain,

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (08:16)
They look over the body. Where’s the scratch?

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (08:34)
And somebody, at least for me, in my experience, when kids were acting out and I didn’t dare act out, I kept all that stuff inside because I got in so much trouble at home. It was just like, anyway, I was trained different. But when the, when the, some of my classmates would act out, they got, I remember one of my friends, one of the boys in my class who was a good friend of mine, you know, he said whatever he said on him or what it was, it wasn’t that bad. And the teacher got so mad, he ran over to him and picked him up and stuffed him in the trash can. I’m like, who does that? Right? And, all right, so this guy had, he was coming from a mental emotional space, right? There was no kind of understanding about, you know,

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (09:15)
my goodness.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (09:30)
When we’re little, we don’t know how to regulate our emotions. And so if the adults in the room have to do that for us, there was no understanding around that. So the mental, the emotional, the spiritual really didn’t get, we’re not focused on that. We’re focused on the physical. So no wonder when we think about pain, we think about chronic pain especially, we think about the physical part.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (09:38)
Great. I mean the whole message then is if we never check in and model that we need to take a look at our other types of pain, that that other type of pain doesn’t matter then. Why, you know, the kid or even the adult, why shouldn’t be feeling this way? I should be fine, right? I didn’t break any bones, you know, so yeah, may have been the most terrifying and life -threatening experience I’ve ever been in, but I’m physically okay. So therefore, I should not be having this internal turmoil.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (10:29)
Exactly. Yeah.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (10:31)
And so thinking then about pain in that way, you know, you mentioned from a historical perspective at carrying on and I picture the weight on someone’s shoulders. How can that impact? I mean, when we have a pain within us that isn’t being acknowledged, how does that manifest?

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (10:54)
Well, it usually manifests in behavior, one way or another, if we repress it, it’s still gonna come out in behavior, it’s just gonna come out sideways. So example, when I was little, like four years old, I knew I couldn’t put words on it, but I felt it. I knew that there was something very dark in my family, my immediate family. There was something very dark. And I, because my family, the way they handled things, anything that was unpleasant, they just swept under the rug. I didn’t talk about it, but I felt it. And I didn’t talk about that I felt it. Nobody wanted to hear from me. So, but I felt it.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (11:50)
All right.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (11:55)
And I didn’t know, and I carried it because this is what we do as kids. We feel, well, yes, it’s not just me. This is what we do, right? So we sense something as when we’re young and pardon my throat.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (12:04)
Mm -hmm.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (12:12)
And we see a parent or both parents are distraught about something. And what do we do as children? Automatically, we try and take it on. So if we can relieve the burden from them, then they can take better care of us. It’s very self -focused, right? But that’s…

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (12:28)
Yes. Great.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (12:39)
It’s not just me. It’s like it’s what we do. It’s how we survive in the world. And I didn’t know until I got into the ancestral clearing modality many years later what that was and had to release that burden because I carried it for years. No wonder I had a bad back. Right. So and my mother had suffered with the

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (13:00)
Right.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (13:07)
with spinal issues and she had undiagnosed bipolar disorder, undiagnosed and untreated by bipolar disorder and alcoholism. So my mom and dad both died proximally from alcoholism. So they were carrying a burden and…

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (13:32)
Right.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (13:33)
And my brother handled it a little bit differently than I did, but he still felt it. He kind of, instead of kind of feeling it and doing this holding it thing, he actually kind of had a different trauma kind of, that’s a trauma response. He had a different kind of trauma response, which was, I’m just going to go numb inside. But we’re all familiar with all of these. It just depends on what strategy we’re using in the moment.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (13:55)
Mm -hmm. Absolutely. And thinking of chronic pain and that desire to fix it, the parent that rushes over to the kid or in any situation we have our, we want to fix it, right? We don’t want there to be any discomfort or anything. And so there is certainly a presence of, you know, let’s write a prescription, like let’s do like going to a doctor, even whether it’s emotional, mental health pain or physical pain, there is that almost first thought of what prescription can I write? Have you seen that as having a role in how we need to better approach healing pain?

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (14:52)
Well, I’ll say this, opiates and other pain medications have their place. I remember going to the hospital with a four millimeter kidney stone and the pain was just, it had me to my knees. And they gave me a shot of Dilaudid that handled the pain. And that was the last, that was it. It was over. Like it was this kind of one and done kind of thing. So I was at a level at that point where I was in so much pain I couldn’t even rest. There was just no way. So, and when you’ve had trauma, you’ve been in a car accident or whatever, you’ve had that kind of physical trauma. Opiates are very helpful, but they don’t heal chronic pain. And that’s been the issue is they actually don’t heal the changes that happen in the brain.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (15:31)
Hmm.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (15:52)
as a result of chronic pain. Like I said, we have this negative, it affects the emotions, so we get quite negative. We get brain fog. The brain doesn’t process pain the same. And so there’s a lot of confusion there. The mind gets very agitated, can’t rest. And opiates and benzos don’t help with that. That’s what they did for me. They…They, and there were many other people like me, because I met them. The doctors in my case, I had a back injury that, a broken bone in the base of my spine, which I got when I was 14. I didn’t really realize that it was a problem until about 14 years later, I had to have surgery. And they tried to do a bone fusion, it took three tries to do it. And then we had to have a corrective surgery after that. And as soon as just going into the first surgery, they started me on benzodiazepines, anti -anxiety medicine and the opiates. What I didn’t see, that was a problem, but I ended up on those for 31 years. And before I found a doctor that could take me off them and actually could help me heal chronic pain.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (17:08)
wow.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (17:12)
All the doctors that I worked with, they didn’t understand really the nature of product pain. And their only answer was, here are your opiates and your benzos. This is the best quality of life that we can give you. You’re not going to heal and I have a science background and I was trained as a research scientist. So I was kind of taught analytical thinking and how to design experiments and things like that. And when I heard that, I thought to myself, what are the assumptions under this diagnosis, the prognosis that I’m not going to heal? Well, that doctor is talking about a healing model that has framework. And he wasn’t allowing, none of them were allowing for the fact that that model could change and that maybe their model was short sighted and maybe missing some aspects. So I knew that they were telling me more about the limitation of the model they were working with than they were telling you about my ability, the body’s ability to heal.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (18:21)
Wow.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (18:22)
So that was a saving grace for me. Anyway, I finally, that was their only answer. And I brought in other modalities and stuff. I had the last 15 years of those 31 years was Ativan and Fentanyl. So it’s kind of amazing that I’m even here.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (18:41)
Wow.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (18:44)
I got off all that stuff and a year after I got off all that stuff, the LA Times did an investigation because part of the opiates that I was on was Oxycontin. The LA Times was doing an investigative report. They broke the Purdue Pharma story. I was Dr. Preskoff who took me through his treatment program and he talks me. He suggested that they talk that they…

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (18:57)
Hmm.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (19:13)
they talked to me, just they interviewed him and he said, you need to talk to Elizabeth Gibb. Anyway, so I’m sitting in Cafe Gratitude in West Hollywood talking to this LA Times reporter about my experience. And she’s asked me very pointed questions. When did you do, what was the prescription, when did you do all these different questions? Very careful questions. And I just told her my experience. She was just asking what my experience was and I told her. I told her my experience. And I was about six months, six months to a year after I’d gotten, gotten clean from all this stuff. So still pretty wound up, right? My nervous system still recovering, right? Wound up for so many years. So I mean, I’m still, I’m better, but I’m still, I didn’t have any pain or anything, but I,

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (20:00)
Yes, absolutely.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (20:07)
My nervous system still wrapped up. And at the end of the interview, after I finished answering her question, she said, you know, we’ve discovered that Purdue Pharma knew that this Oxycontin wasn’t a 12 hour drug. They knew it was this short acting drug. And I’m telling you the level of betrayal that I felt in that moment, and I’m sitting in public, not even in my own home with somebody who I’ve just met, right? And I was just like, what? I was just, I was very, I felt betrayed and I’m now a betrayal, trauma recovery coach, by the way, right? But I felt betrayed on like some level I can’t even explain. Anyway, I,

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (20:59)
Absolutely.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (21:04)
I had to learn how to handle that. And because I just felt the injustice of that, which was just really hard. And I thought to myself, well, you know, I can get really angry about this and I can go and fight with Purdue Pharma and I can jump on the bandwagon and, you know, try and get in the…because there’s a big lawsuit, there has been all that stuff. And I thought, but I only have so much energy.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (21:34)
to settle in.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (21:40)
What would be the best use of my energy? And the best use of my energy was to clear the charge around my own reaction to their, because it wasn’t what they did was not personal to me. It was personal, but it wasn’t, I’m just saying like I had to change my perspective on how I was experiencing this relationship I had with this drug company to try and,

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (22:07)
Yeah.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (22:10)
come to some kind of peace with what had happened to me and drop into the gift of the experience rather than the betrayal that I felt. Like, how am I going to spend my energy in this space? Like, what’s the best use of my energy? So I did that work, right? I did that work. And I’m glad I did because…I feel like I got to a level of inner peace faster in my recovery than I would have otherwise.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (22:45)
Just 31 years of opioids and you mentioned benzodiazepines as well. For anyone who isn’t aware, even if you are taking it exactly as prescribed, that will cause a dependence in the body. You mentioned the impact on, you know, neurologically as far as like the chemicals in our body and how our brain functions is impacted again, even if you take it exactly as prescribed. Then going through the detox and tapering off, your body is now learning how to function without those chemicals in your body and having to rewire pathways. You hear or you learn that, you know, certainly like you said, it wasn’t Purdue didn’t say I’m going to target Elizabeth. it was presented as a valid treatment model at the time. And then you learned that they knew really that it was likely going to result in significant dependence and you were able in that pain again pain to target where your energy went. I’m just blown away by that because I don’t think the majority of us are able to separate from that in emotional response or reaction. Maybe I should say reaction instead of response.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (24:17)
Well, thank you for seeing that. Yes, I took those medications exactly as prescribed. Still got in trouble with them. Funny enough, it was harder for me to get off the benzodiazepines than it was the opiates, by the way. My nervous system took longer to detox from them. I mean, just the fallout from the benzos was just phenomenal.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (24:36)
No, I’m short.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (24:48)
I have to say that I had a few things going for me. I had wonderful mentors and teachers and people around me. I had the rooms where I found my voice. I literally was not used to being able to sit in a room and share with anybody without anybody coming back and saying, say it like this, or interrupting me. I just like, that was amazing to me that they said they.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (25:12)
I’m going to go ahead and close the video.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (25:17)
wow, it was amazing, right? So anybody says to me now, you know, if I say something and say, say it like this, I’m like, I said it the way I said it, because I meant it. I’m just saying. So I had I had a lot of support. And I also came in with this gift. One of the we come in with the gifts and the burdens of our ancestors.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (25:26)
Hahaha! Absolutely, I love that.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (25:45)
I came in, I swear, I came in with the gift of gratitude. So I already had this perspective of when it hit the fan in my life, it’s like, okay, yeah, I’m at a low point, what’s the opposite high point? So I kind of understood there’s this equal and opposite reaction in life and it was gratitude was always the high point. So I kind of had that kind of deal going on anyway. So it was something I practiced my whole life. There was that. And then the other part was I did a lot of, I got into ancestral clearing, which was a modality that John Newton of Health Beyond Belief offered as part of Dr. Peter Prescott’s pain management program at the Betty Ford Center. And in treatment when I was there, he was a wellness practitioner, he brought it there. And it was very helpful to me because it helped me. So if we’re having a reaction to the present moment and it’s a big, you know, we feel a big charge in the body, there’s an expression in recovery rooms, if it’s hysterical, it’s historical.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (27:02)
Wow.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (27:03)
So I knew when I lit up like a Christmas tree in Cafe Gratitude in West Hollywood with this reporter and this news, I knew it wasn’t about that. I knew it had a root in the past and I did the work, right, to clear that. And it had this beautiful effect on clearing the present, right. So those are the kinds of things that help guide me through that.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (27:35)
And just to tie it to what you were saying earlier, when you said you knew it was something from the past for you, whether it’s your past or past on through prior generations, you had earlier talked about when we treat pain, we are not, or same with addiction, look for the pain, we aren’t actually treating the cause of it. With medications especially, we are just kind of numbing it and not saying, okay, what’s the source of it? So you, in this time, recognize it sounds like that Purdue doctors were not the source of that feeling that you had. You went and said, where’s the original source and let me heal from there.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (28:23)
Yeah. Yep, exactly. Yeah.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (28:28)
that that’s powerful to be and I imagine then as a result there are other areas of your life that healed not just to be able to come to a place of peace with the you know opioid scandal really but if you go back to the root cause they’re gonna it’s gonna have an effect on many things I think. Is that right?

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (28:56)
You cut out there for just a moment, but I’m pretty sure I got the gist of it. Yes, that’s right. And I can say, I can take you, I know enough about my own family history to give you a hint about where the root of it was for me and my lineage, right? So on my mother’s side,

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (28:59)
I’m sorry.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (29:23)
we actually have records that go back like 12 generations. So we actually know what kind of went down. We know it kind of enlarged, we know if in certain events the family was involved in certain events. And so one of the things that happened was King Louis XIV decreed, made this, said that the Catholics had to renounce

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (29:32)
Yeah.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (29:51)
see, no, so the Protestants had to renounce their Protestant ways and become Catholic or they’d lose their land. And so that was the Huguenots, right? They got, so there’s a historical thing. So my family got, were Huguenots and they got caught up in that. So just in that little part,

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (30:17)
Wow.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (30:21)
of the family, there was this religious persecution. So that was unjust, it just kind of seemed like a political whim, like it was kind of a land grab thing going on. It wasn’t actually religious, it was actually a land grab. So, right, injustice. So you can see that that’s going to create a charge in somebody. And if you don’t resolve that, it’s just going to get passed down in the lineage.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (30:44)
Yes. Right.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (30:49)
which I could get into the science of that, but I’m not sure we want to go there.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (30:53)
We may have to just do another episode and talk about that. Because we, you know, we parent how we were parented and we have values that we pass along from generation to generation. So it makes sense. And this is just amazing. I really am not familiar with this work and I’m so glad that I got to learn about it and that our listeners do too. And if they want to learn more, if they want to work with you, how…how do they connect with you?

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (31:23)
you can find me at my website, which is elizabeth-kip.com. You have to put a hyphen between my first and last name. Otherwise you’ll find elizabethkip .com is a web designer and a photographer and she’s amazing, but she’s not me. Elizabeth -kip .com. You can book a session there. There’s lots of free resources. There’s a blog.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (31:42)
Nice. wonderful.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (31:51)
check all my interviews. There’s lots of stuff on the website so you can find me there or you can find me anywhere on social media as well.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (31:59)
Okay. And you have a book, I know. So we, someone can use also get that. And I imagined, the way through chronic pain. Love that.

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (32:06)
Yep. That went in. And by the way, Dr. Peter Preskop, who had his beautiful pain management program at the Betty Ford Center, it’s not there anymore, but it was there when he was there, Conquer Chronic Pain and Innovative Mind -Body Approach. It’s a beautiful book. These two books together are a great resource for healing chronic pain. Peter passed away in 20…2015, 2016, I can’t remember now, but he left us this beautiful book. So.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (32:39)
Great, well, we’ll make sure that we link to it. And so before we go, I would love to ask you the question that we ask everyone, which is if people take one thing away from our discussion today, what would you like it to be?

Elizabeth Kipp, Stress Management & Historical Trauma Specialist (32:55)
I would like it to be that the greatest healer in your life lives within you. The doctor can set a bone and stitch up a wound, but it can’t tell the body how to heal. Only the body knows how to, the mind -body spirit knows how to do that. So check your reference point.

Whitney Menarcheck | she/her (33:13)
Wow, that’s a great way to a great message to take away from this. Thank you Elizabeth so much for taking the time to speak with me and share your knowledge and awareness of really the power to heal from within with all of our listeners. And if you are finding this as exciting of a conversation as I am, please be sure to like it and share it with someone who can benefit as well. The more we get these messages and stories and resources out there, the more we can reduce the stigma. Thank you.